Superman #17 came out this week, the last chapter of H'El on Earth, about as muddle a Superman family crossover as I have read. Thank goodness it is over so I can put it in my rear view mirror.
I have had major issues with this arc, mostly around the inanity in Supergirl's characterization. But I also have had problems with the way the other members of the family have been portrayed as well. The characters read differently from chapter to chapter and from book to book. The Supergirl in this book is much different than the one in her own title. The Superboy in this arc is way more heroic and way more inspired by Superman than he has ever been in his title.
But, as I feared at the end of Supergirl #17, there isn't enough space in this one issue to wrap up this arc in any meaningful way. We are rushed through a simple solution (harming H'El snuffs all his machinations), problems that have cropped up in the plot are simply ignored (Superboy doesn't seem to be dying anymore and in fact seems stronger than ever, it isn't the draining of energy that will blow up our solar system it is the activation of the time ship), characters change their minds dramatically (Supergirl goes from smitten and angry follower to murderous and familial in the span of minutes), and we still don't know anything about H'El or his plot. When there is that many things swept under the rug, the story can't be satisfying.
Now I can imagine that some people will say I should be happy that Kara was the 'hero' here. But I can't forget 7 issues of stupidity. And I can't be happy to see Supergirl try to kill someone.
If there is one bright spot here, it is the art of Kenneth Rocafort which really shines. It is a pretty book to look at. Too bad the words ruin things. Let's start picking at the scabs.
So part of this arc was the introduction of 'The Oracle', a cosmic being of immense power, brought to Earth by the hornblowing alien from Stormwatch. His arrival was part of the cliffhangers of this book. He towered over the Earth last issue. With all that buildup, you would think he would have some role to play in the story.
Instead, through exposition, we learn that the Oracle is called to 'bear witness to threats of time and space'. So he isn't an active part of this story at all.
Superman tries to communicate with the Oracle but all it does is flood his mind with memories things that are and some things that 'should not be'. Most of the memories shown are parts of the origins of the characters as we have seen in the New 52 (see Kal's rocket and Kara in her pod). So I don't know what shouldn't be. Maybe this is some way of saying that the timeline still isn't right? Or is it an out for DC if they want to re-write some of the super-origins if they grow tired of these newer versions?
Either way, the Oracle leaves. He really had no impact on this story ... none. So why include him? Or why spend so much time making it seem like he was part of the story when he wasn't?
As I said before, the plot twists of the earlier issues that need to be resolved are simply ... resolved.
So suddenly Kara, who was shouting her love and praising H'El just moments ago, suddenly says that she and H'El 'never had love'. I suppose I should be happy that Supergirl isn't willing to risk Earth and recognizes the errors of her ways. But the truth is, this is sooo different from the way she acted in the first 7 issues of this arc and not much has changed other than Wonder Woman basically telling Supergirl to open her eyes. The first part of the characterization is idiotic given the cautious nature of Kara in her book.
On top of that, Superboy who was dying moments earlier, genetically twisted and mangled, barely able to stand as Kara pounded him, now looks fine and actually is powerful enough to bring down H'El's energy gathering station. So I guess that has just been forgotten.
I don't mind these heroics ... in fact I applaud them. But just a couple of pages ago, she was enamored and he was almost dead. You can't change things this quickly and have it read right.
How about the plot point that our solar system is going to explode if H'El succeeds. Well, I think it was implied in prior issues that it was the absorbing of all our sun's energy that would lead to that galactic catastrophe.
Now that has been changed. Now he has simply absorbed the energy he needs without threatening the galaxy. It is the actual rip through the time stream from his ship that will destroy us. Of course, this new plot twist means that the time machine can work ... which we see at the end of the book ... I think.
But you can't change that threat from the draining energy to the use of the ship, not in the last issue.
I also wonder why Superboy has got such a postive feel to him in this arc. Here he plays the role of Kryptonian conscience wondering if they would approve of H'El's plans. Of course, this is the guy who describes himself as a living weapon, who doesn't care about Superman, has been programmed to kill Superman, and who recently stomped through an issue saying 'kill, maim, destroy'. Again, I actually like Superboy's growth here. It is just felt off given who he has been in his own book and even in some places of this story. Wouldn't that line have come better from Diana?
As I said, the 'dying Superboy' looks pretty spry here as he holds back 'time shards'. Any time the writer has a character apologize for their dialogue (here Kon saying he is making things up as he goes) I cringe.
As for Kara, since she is seeing clearly he realizes it is time to make a stand. Again, I am glad she is asking herself these questions. I just wonder why now and not when she first meets H'El.
As odd as some of the dialogue has been, this rant by H'El stood out as the clunkiest. 'Humans all think they're all so damned special. They're not.' Doesn't that seem a little petty coming from someone who thinks we are below him on an evolutionary scale? Would I say 'Squirrels all think they are so damned special. They're not.' And the 'damned' just seems bitter and ... well ... human. Why would he say that?
I suppose we haven't really heard H'El's true origin. Maybe this will make more sense then.
As for Supergirl end game, she realizes the H'El is controlling everything psionically. The only way to stop the timeship from leaving and taking the solar system with it is to eliminate H'El.
So, risking herself by holding a chunk of green K, she stabs H'El in the chest.
That's right folks ... Supergirl tries to kill the enemy!
This isn't a wounding attack. This isn't hitting him in the head to knock him out. This is stabbing him in his heart.
Do I like a Supergirl who would risk her own life to save millions? Yes.
Do I want to read about a murderous Supergirl? Not me.
With his bleeding open chest wound, H'El falls into this temporal swirl and disappears.
So H'El isn't stopped.
And he uses his energy to go through a time warp.
So ... why did he need the ship?
I suppose that seeing Kara almost sacrifice herself to save the galaxy is a good thing. That said, seeing a dying Supergirl in Superman's arms is a bit too reminiscent of Crisis #7.
And the heartwarming 'I did it for my cousin' is a complete turnaround from the 'stay out of my business and away from me' Supergirl we have seen throughout this arc. Why would she be so loving of him now when she has shunned him since the inception of the DCNu? If this was an olive branch extended to Superman I suppose it works a little. But it sounded almost too sugary of an answer for that.
I just think that characterization has been so erratic in this story that it is hard to feel like there is any internal consistency. I can only imagine what this would read like if I read all the chapters in one sitting.
As for H'El ...
He really didn't need a big solar-system killing timeship after all. He ends up going back in time and arrives on Krypton. So even moreso, the 'victory' of the heroes is hollow. H'El succeeds!
So let's take a look back at the arc.
Superboy seems to come out of this whole thing looking the best. He has matured and actually sounds reasonably heroic. He is inspired by Superman. Of course, he should still be dying ... but we'll see if that is even addressed. Superman comes out looking okay ... although he basically was a guest star in this arc. He routinely got pummeled by H'El, didn't tell his cousin his concerns and sent friends to throttle her, and had nothing to do with the outcome. Supergirl comes out the worst because in the opening chapters she is too trusting and naive of H'El (which is the exact opposite of her in her own book). She turns things around in this issue but it is so sudden it makes her seem unstable and immature.
As for H'El. We don't know who he is. We don't know his true origin. We don't know how he got his powers. We know nothing of him.
The Oracle? Why was it even in this story? Or why was their such a buildup about it being here in prior issues if he didn't do anything?
I think I have laid out my concerns about the inconsistent plot points and characterization enough not to reiterate.
I am glad this story is done. Because at least it is done.
Overall grade: D
29 comments:
Great review of a grating issue, just another in a storyline that has been an utter mess. I'd love to see Scott Lobdell and co come over here and try to answer some of the points raised, about changes in the rules.
But it won't happen.
And then there are the mysteries - what was H'el's plan to save Krypton; what's with the here and gone chest symbol?; if the Wat...Oracle is just an observer, what was his herald doing with H'el in a flashback?
Gah. Does Denny O'Neil still come into the DC offices once a week to train the editors? He should come in daily.
I think we're being too harsh on Kara again. She's trying to stop the threat the only way she knows how. How many times has H'El kicked Superman's ass in this arc? He's stronger than them, she knows that. The Earth needs to be saved and she takes a drastic measure. A drastic measure that is not lost on her. She does not go in with a screaming battle cry for blood, she intensely laments what she does and asks Rao for forgiveness. I've had my problems with this arc too but at the same time its kinda an unfair damned if she does damned if she doesn't amongst the fanbase too. She saved the Earth at great personal risk to herself to try and make up for a wrong. I think its rather short-sighted to just take from it that she tried to kill a guy.
Agree wth your problems with this crossover,and how it ended,but this shows you that lobdell is a better non crossover writer,cause this was thrown together just like he thinks.this and the teen titans crossover were both his to start and control,its his name that should take the blame for so many holes in the story.
Ill agree with jay about kara,she was fooled,woke up finally,so that the entire planet was doomed if h'el was stopped,and that he was more powerful than all if them together,so she had to do what she did,and at a cost to herself.
What did everyone think of supermans punch felt around the world?
I'd love to see Scott Lobdell and co come over here and try to answer some of the points raised, about changes in the rules.
But it won't happen.
Yeah.
But shouldn't the editor or the writer themselves have seen these problems?
You're right Mart. Where is O'Neill when you need him?
He's stronger than them, she knows that. The Earth needs to be saved and she takes a drastic measure. A drastic measure that is not lost on her.
Thanks for the comment.
I agree wholeheartedly that her taking a stand and being the hero was wonderful.
But you see how quickly she is nearly incapacitated by the Kryptonite. Just shoving it in his vicinity might have done the same thing. Stabbing him in the thigh or flank might have done the same thing.
But this is a killing blow.
A tough choice? Yes. But not the only choice.
this and the teen titans crossover were both his to start and control,its his name that should take the blame for so many holes in the story.
Agreed.
He seemed to be the mastermind of this story.
The person I feel worst for is Mike Johnson who probably had this forced on him and then was shown the door.
"And the heartwarming 'I did it for my cousin' is a complete turnaround from the 'stay out of my business and away from me' Supergirl we have seen throughout this arc."
Hmmm. We haven't seen that in this Arc have we? I mean, the whole thing started with Kara wanting to talk to Kal before deciding anything (and Kal reacting... badly). And then throghout, Kara has never been pushing Kal away, but has been shown sad that he doesn't "understand". Also, it was Kal, not Kara who said "Stay away or I'll beat you up" a couple of issues ago. Throghouot, it's always seemed to me like Kal has been written as antagonistic to Kara, and that's part of the reason she trusts H'el as much as she does.
"So suddenly Kara, who was shouting her love and praising H'El just moments ago, suddenly says that she and H'El 'never had love'."
I found this to make absolute sense. She's been betrayed thoroughly by H'el; when she finally realised that (which she would have considerably earlier if not for her cousin), she was quite understandably veeeery angry.
"Do I want to read about a murderous Supergirl? Not me."
Nor me; I'm very strict on this point. Don't ask me about Wonder Woman and Max Lord! But in this case... I'm very much undecided. Time was of the essence; billions of lives at stake; AND H'el had shown himself far more powerful than ordinary Kryptonians. Targetting some other body part and hoping it'd be enough might work, but if she's wrong... bye bye Earth. Also, since H'el even manages to survive kryptonite to the heart, it kinda validates Kara.
That said, this entire storyline... It COULD have been good, even using the basic storyline; as Kara's first step to fully embrace Earth. I maintain that it was the execution, not the idea, that was bad. And H'el is, actually, a kinda good villain. If he's used again, it might be interesting, since we've gotten the crappy bits (the badly written Kal & Kara) out of the way by now. Hopefully.
Wow I mean wow....words fail me as to just how badly Supergirl's character has been abused in this miniseries...all to make Kon and Kal look like demigods as well.
Sick and sad...we are right back with schoolbus slayer Supergirl...took awhile but DC finally resurrected their favorite version of Kara, angry credulous, prone to very bad decisions AND A KILLER TOO!!
NOW THAT is some fan service!
Class all the way DC, class all the way.
Dunno I think I may have to drop the book, I mean DC doesn't listen and relies on weird stunts to sell floppies maybe this is a genre I should finally outgrow?
JF
Targetting some other body part and hoping it'd be enough might work, but if she's wrong... bye bye Earth. Also, since H'el even manages to survive kryptonite to the heart, it kinda validates Kara.
Thanks for the comment. I worry that I am looking at this arc too harshly and want to hear from people looking at this more positively.
I suppose all you say is true. Still, the writer could have had another injury work just as he did here.
If anything the rapidity in which Kara is almost wiped out Kryptonite might make me think she would try that before going for the kill shot.
Still, I will say ... as you have ... that she did, in the end, save the day.
Sick and sad...we are right back with schoolbus slayer Supergirl...took awhile but DC finally resurrected their favorite version of Kara, angry credulous, prone to very bad decisions AND A KILLER TOO!!
Don't give up yet. A year after crystal killing Kara, Gates took over and the golden age started.
Still, this was very very bad. Darkest before the dawn?
I feel where you're coming from Anj. I may not completely agree but you always explain yourself perfectly well so its just a case of different strokes here. At this stage, as inexperienced as she is, as confused as she is, as how new to this she all is, it just doesn't bother me that much that she wouldn't yet have the foresight to try figure out non-lethal methods to incapacitate someone the scope of H'El in a major crisis situation. In pretty much every other situation she's been in since arriving on Earth, she's made the effort to use subduing tactics (in the case of Tycho he was torched but she even regretted that much). So the fact that she stabbed H'El here, to me, is just an illustration of the gravity of the moment and how she just didn't have the time or experience to pull a Superman and think of a creative means to just subdue the guy.
The only other time I can think of Supergirl flying into such a rage would be during the Matrix miniseries(some twenty years ago), where she discovered that Luthor had cloned her to make an army to conquer the world. Matrix destroyed his secret labs one by one, wiped out the mindless clone army and finally tossed Luthor off his penthouse (only to have Superman save Luthor and chide her for going too far).
-- DW
"Thanks for the comment. I worry that I am looking at this arc too harshly and want to hear from people looking at this more positively."
Most of your criticisms are valid, I myself knew in advance what to expects from this issue as I'd heard Lobdell say it would carry over into the big time travel arc in a few months, plus these event-style crossovers do mostly all follow the same pattern - a stretched out plot with a spluttering ending and proboble reset button by the end.
I've said this before about Lobdell but he himself stated in interviews heralding his arrival on Superman that he never plans plots in detail, instead he basically just sits down and makes it up as he goes along. I think anyone who recalls his X-Men carreer will accept this slapdash approach as true... but for the most part he gets away with it. It's just 'events' like this one where this approach he has really shows its flaws.
There was an interview with him for H'el on Earth where he is asked, not unreasonably, what H'els powers are. He completely rebuffs the question saying he doesn't understand why people/fans are concerned by such things, just accept and roll with it... again this is his approach to writing at work.
I'm not knocking him, I like his Superman very much, but it's a fact that his writing style is very much 'popcorn' and eye candy material. Whether it be Teen Titans, Superman or Red Hood it doesn't stand up to any close scrutiny. Luckily for him here he's teamed with Ken Rocafort who's own style is tailor made for Lobdell's razzle dazzle approach... I think this a great book for Superman as it sells itself on being a set pieces and visual spectacle while Action Comics sells itself on plot and ideas. There's a definite place for a Superman book like this, it might be over the top and slightly illogical as a read but it beats the alternative directive of a 'Grounded' of 'New Krypton'.
"How about the plot point that our solar system is going to explode if H'El succeeds. Well, I think it was implied in prior issues that it was the absorbing of all our sun's energy that would lead to that galactic catastrophe.
Now that has been changed. Now he has simply absorbed the energy he needs without threatening the galaxy. It is the actual rip through the time stream from his ship that will destroy us. Of course, this new plot twist means that the time machine can work ... which we see at the end of the book ... I think.
But you can't change that threat from the draining energy to the use of the ship, not in the last issue."
I reread this again and while indeed muddled this is not quite what is happening.
The first pages with Cyborg and Superman make it clear the Star Chamber and its draining is very real, what happens as I understand it is the power then opens the time rifts and H'el is using his own Power to direct and keep them open, but he has none spare to dismantle the tower and free the ship within, which is why he tricks Superboy and Co into doing it for him.
The Ship holds the captured power from the solar system but taking this through the time portal is what will actually destroy the Solar system...
Yeah. It's muddled alright.nmarchan
At this stage, as inexperienced as she is, as confused as she is, as how new to this she all is, it just doesn't bother me that much that she wouldn't yet have the foresight to try figure out non-lethal methods to incapacitate someone the scope of H'El in a major crisis situation.
I suppose so. She is young. And we have seen that Zor-El trained her in pretty significant combat.
I just prefer my Supergirl to not think that way.
The only other time I can think of Supergirl flying into such a rage would be during the Matrix miniseries(some twenty years ago), where she discovered that Luthor had cloned her to make an army to conquer the world.
Hmmmm ... I have that mini-series. Maybe it is time for a themed back issue review.
Maybe do some 'Supergirl on the edge' back issues.
I've said this before about Lobdell but he himself stated in interviews heralding his arrival on Superman that he never plans plots in detail, instead he basically just sits down and makes it up as he goes along.
That's pretty weak.
Comic readers are more sophisticated now to just gloss over glaring mistakes.
Why would DC put Supes in his hands?
The Ship holds the captured power from the solar system but taking this through the time portal is what will actually destroy the Solar system...
Yeah. It's muddled alright.nmarchan
I am almost afraid to read it in one sitting.
"Comic readers are more sophisticated now to just gloss over glaring mistakes.
Why would DC put Supes in his hands?
I think a confluence of things - he launched the new Superboy and with Rocafort made a very strong seller out of 'Red Hood...' of all books, not to mention Teen Titans. Both of these are still among DCs top ranked sellers(!)
He might not be Grant Morrison of Geoff Johns in terms of quality plotting but there's no doubt he IS very popular, and as I say he is good at what he does. Superman really moves at a pace with hm on board, it's very much a Popcorn & Soda book... big on spectacle, low on internal logic.
But as I explained, I can live with this.
He might not be Grant Morrison of Geoff Johns in terms of quality plotting but there's no doubt he IS very popular, and as I say he is good at what he does.
It is a good point. And I don't deny your points about this being like a blockbuster action movie.
And the truth is I am much more forgiving with Morrison and some of the 'leaps of faith' you need to comprehend his works. I mean, I actually kind of liked Final Crisis! That was much more inscrutable than this.
I wonder if this would have read better if it was just Lobdell rather than weaving in and out of all the books with all their slightly different takes on the characters.
I still don't like this arc. But I really appreciate the comments!
Your calling Supergirl murderous is
rather silly.
If merely exposing the H'el to kryptonite is even minutely less likely to stop him than stabbing him to death, stabbing him is the right thing to do, since at least 7 billion and possibly several trillion lives are on the line.
consider if exposure has a 99% chance of stopping him:that is a 1% chance of not stopping him, which means expected fatalies of at least 70 million.
If stabbing raises the chance to say
99.01%,expected fatalities fall to 68,300,000. 700,000 lives versus 1 life, and of course actually billions of innocent lives risked against the 1 life of the guy who was about to kill them all. It would be immoral not to bring maximum force to bear.
Now if the differences in the probabilities were in the parts per billion (for the solar system) or parts per trillion or quadrillion (for the galaxy), then and only then would it be defensible to take the risk of attempting to spare him.
And even that would be rather dubious.
It's also certainly a lot better than her reasons for attempting to kill the Flash.
Now if only the writing didn't make her seem like she has some kind of multiple personality disorder.
Or maybe Kryptonians are like pre-Surak Vulcans...prone to flights of extreme bursts of judgement impairing emotions...or maybe just female kryptonians...etc.But I doubt that the writers bothered with thinking up anything like that.
Your calling Supergirl murderous is
rather silly.
If merely exposing the H'el to kryptonite is even minutely less likely to stop him than stabbing him to death, stabbing him is the right thing to do, since at least 7 billion and possibly several trillion lives are on the line.
Are you saying that Supergirl killing H'El isn't murder?
I don't think you will win that argument.
Sop maybe you are trying to argue that Supergirl would be justified in murdering him.
But even then, I think we need heroes to be heroes and not killers. What if H'El was going to kill one person ... should she kill him then? Where is the line drawn.
Someone needs to be above all this. Someone needs to inspire.
It should be the super-family.
Hey Anj,
I found this site a few weeks ago and now I check in every day. My favorite DC characters are Kara and M'gann (not supergirl and Miss Martian). This Supergirl title, the previous one and Worlds' Finest makes for three Karas. It also makes this one of my favorite stops on the web.
However we disagree on what the super-family should be. The way I see it you say that they should be ideals of heroism (superman in particular). I think they should be people reaching for that ideal but never grasping (because no one is perfect), a perpetuate heroes journey of sorts.
I also think that current E1 Kara is realistic and I like her as a character. I hope she becomes an example of a great hero (not an ideal hero).
As for Kara attempting murder. There is a difference between murdering and killing. Both legal and moral. If H'el had died it would have been "killed in combat" not "murdered". Killed for a honorable and just reason.
As for where to draw the line, that is something you decide, feel, when you're confronted with the situation, when you see the facts, when you're part of the event not beforehand and hypothetically.
H'el lives, she is a hero, H'el dies, she is a hero not a murderer. It's that simple. It's also an example of heroism for everyone else. If something is needed to be done then you will do it when it needs doing because it is the right thing to do. For me that is part of being a hero.
I found this site a few weeks ago and now I check in every day. My favorite DC characters are Kara and M'gann (not supergirl and Miss Martian). This Supergirl title, the previous one and Worlds' Finest makes for three Karas. It also makes this one of my favorite stops on the web.
However we disagree on what the super-family should be. The way I see it you say that they should be ideals of heroism (superman in particular). I think they should be people reaching for that ideal but never grasping (because no one is perfect), a perpetuate heroes journey of sorts.
Thanks for the kind words and for stopping by. Welcome!
I think for the most part we are on the same pafe. The reason I like Supergirl so much is because she is striving for that heroism. She isn't the complete hero like Superman yet. She is getting there.
But, at least for me, I kind of draw the line at lethal force in the Superman family (I suppose Batman as well). I just think even the legacy heroes working their way to the top should respect life completely.
I don't want Supergirl to be Ravager. And vice versa.
Thanks again for stopping by!
Ank wrote:
"Are you saying that Supergirl killing H'El isn't murder?"
Yes, I am.
Anj wrote:
"I don't think you will win that argument."
With you? Obviously not. You're emotionally committed to the idea that killing is always immoral, even when it's the only way to stop billions of murders.
With most legislatures in free countries?
I've already won.
"justifiable homicide" is a thing,
and stopping 1 guy from killing a bunch of other people is generally a defense to
a charge of murder.This isn't legalism on my part....this laws somewhat reflecting actual morals.
Anj wrote:
"Sop maybe you are trying to argue that Supergirl would be justified in murdering him."
Justified in killing him. In fact I would go so far as to say she has a moral duty to kill him if she has even the slightest reason for thinking that is the means of stopping him with the highest likelyhood of success.
Anj wrote:
"But even then, I think we need heroes to be heroes and not killers."
I didn't write it,take it up with DC.
Anj wrote:
"What if H'El was going to kill one person ... should she kill him then?"
"Where is the line drawn."
There are actually at least 3 possibly answers to this:
First, if the 1 person is her,I'd say she's justified in using as much or as little force as she wants, since the only life at risk is hers.
Second, we could suppose a "minimize deaths" moral system:
In this system, she'd take the action that had the lowest average death toll:
So, she'd presumably try to stop H'el
(or whoever) without killing, even though
this presents a higher risk of H'el's target being killed.
So basically, a system where she'd risk an innocent person's life to improve the chance of
saving a guilty person's life.
Third,we suppose a system where H'el(or whoever) trying to kill some single blameless person renders H'el 's claim to
a right to life void,in which case killing him is a moral duty if that has the highest chance of saving the innocent person.
That is, you only minimize the chance of death of the victim, not the sum of the victim's chance of death and Hel's chance of death.
There are of course possible positions between 2 and 3, but they seem fairly arbitrary, like weighting Hel's life at one third or one half
or whatever of his targets life.
You appear to be advocating a fourth position, that Killing is Always Wrong, which necessarily implies that
it is right to let innocent people be murdered if the only way to save them is to kill the person that is going to kill
them.
Anj wrote:
"Someone needs to be above all this. Someone needs to inspire.
It should be the super-family."
I can't fault the writers of DC for giving Superman a case of the heebiejeebies about killing people,
nor can I fault them for giving him logical reasons to refrain even in the most dire circumstances.
(specifically, that he think's it is too tempting to rationalize killing under system 3, and with his power
that itself would risk the lives of innocent people.)
I can't personally be inspired by a moral system that calls police and soldiers who saved thousands or even millions of lives murderers
because they stopped actual murderers in the only way available or refused to unnecessarily risk innocent lives to try to save those who were actually threatening those lives.
Storywise,I'd be fine with a Kara who adopted Superman's ethos for the same reason Superman has (too much power, too slippery a slope,personal preference etc), even though I think that would be slightly less interesting than a Kara who was from an alien society,
wasn't used to thinking of herself as unusually powerful, or perhaps even regarded Superman's position on the morality of killing
as dubious or maybe other variations. Something to distinguish her from being Superman-in-a-skirt.
Anj wrote:
"Thanks for the kind words and for stopping by. Welcome!"
This is the first time someone welcomed me to a site! So thank you.
I don't want either Kara in the DCnU to use lethal force as their default way of handling things, or even a second or third choice, but in H'els case there was no question (clear and present danger for a whole world!).
On a side note I've been wondering about E2 Kara and Helena (they fought in a long and bloody war). What do you think Anj (or anyone who cares to answer)? Did those two kill?
-- Eki
Justified in killing him. In fact I would go so far as to say she has a moral duty to kill him if she has even the slightest reason for thinking that is the means of stopping him with the highest likelyhood of success.
Thanks again for this discussion.
I think we are simply going to have to disagree.
First off, let me say that I am not pollyanna about this. I understand that in the real world police officers and soldiers have to use lethal force to protect people. I am unbelievably grateful for them keeping me safe.
But this is a story. And Lobdell had a choice in how this ended.
You will never convince me that the right way to end a story is Kara trying to kill someone. It will always be wrong for her to kill someone, justified or otherwise.
Elektra - sure
Ravager - fine
Wonder Woman - maybe
But not Supergirl.
I also wonder if you think someone ... anyone ... in the Batman family should kill The Joker. Certainly he has killed hundreds. Do you want a story where Barbara Gordon kills him?
Does H'El think he is justified in killing billions on Earth to save billions on Krypton?
I'm sorry if my wanting the Superman family to represent a different way goes against what you think. But that doesn't mean I want 'Superman in a skirt'. In fact, the reason I love Supergirl is that she isn't Superman, that she is trying to get there.
On a side note I've been wondering about E2 Kara and Helena (they fought in a long and bloody war). What do you think Anj (or anyone who cares to answer)? Did those two kill?
I have commented a little on this in my reviews of Worlds' Finest.
In a recent issue, Helena seems to kill a bunch of werewolves/Apokolips soldiers when she perforates them with her crossbow. So I think she has.
I don't know about Power Girl. In Earth 2 #1, it seems as if Superman hasn't crossed that line. And I doubt she would if he hadn't.
Great question though!
H'el needed the timeship to go further back in time than he could under his own power. His goal is to save Krypton from it's explosion, right? Well, he only could go back twelve years while wounded and under his own power. That isn't success, but failure.
It was in one of the #00 issues where it was said how the Kryptonian clones they used for labor had an uprising and destroyed the planetary systems that kept Kryptons core in check. That is what led to Kryptons eventual destruction, that is something H'el knows about as well. That is where H'el needs to go back to, or even further back, in order to stop it.
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