One of the things I am really really really surprised about is how polarizing the bike shorts under Supergirl's skirt are in the Supergirl fanbase. We already are a tough group to please but this seems to have taken root with people choosing sides.
This is definitely more polarizing than the 'for or against the secret identity of Linda Lang' argument ....
Maybe even more polarizing than the 'Loeb/Kelly or Gates' argument ...
The topic that seems to come up time and time again on message boards is the presence of those red shorts under the skirt. In fact, some Supergirl message board topics have started out talking about one thing only to derail into a 'panties vs bike shorts' discussion. And people can get quite angry and defensive about their position.
I confess I have been part of the problem. I have always been pro-bike shorts and I have talked about the 'panties vs bike shorts' topic here now and then. It's like picking a scab!
Now incredibly (!!) ... almost absurdly ... the topic has become so huge that it was the lead story on Newsarama late last week. A whole column devoted to Jamal Igle talking about the decision to put bike shorts under Supergirl's skirt ( http://www.newsarama.com/comics/060926-Supergirl.html )!
Since they were added, I haven't seen any lurid up-skirt shots in Supergirl. The last panty shot I recall was in Final Crisis #6. The bike shorts just makes sense to me. But the topic has continued to fester.
I already mentioned how it was a point of discussion at the DC Nation panel at Heroes Con.
As always, the whole Newsarama column is worth reading. In particular, Igle really sounds passionate about his concerns of the over-sexualization of the Supergirl character and that adding the shorts was just one thing he did to help curb that look.
Here are some blurbs:
“One of the reason why I went with the shorts rather than just draw the skirt in a way where it was either longer, or I never showed it flying up was that I wanted freedom of movement,” Igle said. “With the fight between her and Reactron on the rooftop in issue #40, she’s doing martial arts and moving around. It makes sense that if you’re doing martial arts, you’re going to have something that’s going to cover you a little, especially if you’re wearing a skirt.”
Yeah, the whole flying around and fighting in a skirt thing makes me think that bike shorts are simply more functional. No one seems to complain about Stargirl wearing bike shorts as her actual uniform.
So I don't know why it is such a big problem here. And then this tidbit ...
While the shorts have become an official addition to Supergirl’s costume, Igle said that there is a more changed version of Supergirl’s costume “floating around the DC offices” that he and Gates keep going back and forth on in terms of adopting.
Now that is interesting. I have heard murmurs of a 'new costume' being introduced in issue #50.
Could we be moving to something more in the vein of the Crisis-era Supergirl or the Matrix Supergirl ... a leotard with an overlying skirt? I have never hidden the fact that I prefer the full shirt/red skirt look.
What do you all think? For or against the bike shorts? Time for a new costume?
I don't care either way,I have some issues with Igle's reasoning but he's more a traditionalist than I am. I didn't even consider them panties, I thought they were what tennis players wore.
ReplyDeleteMy vote is for bike shorts!
ReplyDeleteI personally don't like the red shorts but I don't go to the boards or here to discuss it with anybody since my opinion is based on the general look of Supergirl's costume and not what she wears under her skirt.
ReplyDeleteI'm a fan of Supergirl more classic look, which is a long sleeve leotard with a skirt, bare legs with boots, long hair and cape. That's it.
Even if I did an alternate costume for fun that I posted here before:
http://mhunt.deviantart.com/art/Supergirl-alternate-costume-119459829
My real favorite costume is this one (also already posted here before):
http://mhunt.deviantart.com/art/Supergirl-movie-costume-119460028
Follow by the original:
http://mhunt.deviantart.com/art/Supergirl-commission-160409-126194550
If it was up to me to make the costume for DC, I would say "Movie costume" as first choice. I'll probably be told that they want something 'new' so I would do a new one, yes, but I'll follow the traditional design: long sleeve leotard, mini-skirt, boots, bare legs, long hair and cape.
:)
As for the shorts, I honestly don't care about them, because with or without shorts, an image of Supergirl descending with he skirt flipping completly doesn't look look and is not appealing so.. they are not important.
It's true that people like to see that part, I'll list some commissios that were requested for me to draw but not ordered in the end to give you a sample of what some people like to see:
1- a near KO Supergirl in a boxing ring corner with tank top and hot pants with a lot of cleavage showing.
2- an unconsious Superigrl dragged away by Catwoman from her legs, both of legs bound with CW whip so the skirt is fully flipped over.
Pressed 'enter' and submitted before time..
ReplyDeleteTo finish, the sample image from Final Crisis is an example of showing her bottoms just to do so.. if you look at it, you'll see that it should not be so visible so the perpective is 'off' , unless Supergirl anatomy is deformed.
At least some artist that like alot to do this which is called 'fan service' can do it iwthout actually doing it, just check Ed Benes short run, a lot of 'eye candy' but he never had to flip the skirt or did what the artist on FC did.
Oh lord panty-politics again....there is a form of apparel out there known as a dancer's skirt or an athletic skirt. I do a lot of walking on a local bike trail and I see some women out there power-walking in a skirt which has the briefs built right in so to speak. I think SG ought to sport this style it's practical and keeps her image as DC's "skirt girl" intact. At the very least the bike shorts ought to match the skirt color...but if nothing else is changed in respect of this issue I couldn't care less...it's only a pair of damn bike shorts after all.
ReplyDelete:D
If I had my way she'd be back in the red hot pants with an authentic super-formal in her closet as well...
:D
John Feer
Anj said...
ReplyDeleteSo I don't know why it is such a big problem here. And then this tidbit ...
While the shorts have become an official addition to Supergirl’s costume, Igle said that there is a more changed version of Supergirl’s costume “floating around the DC offices” that he and Gates keep going back and forth on in terms of adopting.
Now that is interesting. I have heard murmurs of a 'new costume' being introduced in issue #50.
OMG! That would be the exact issue where PAD ended up changing Linda's to the Superman: The Animated Series 'Kara In-Ze' look too! :D
Could we be moving to something more in the vein of the Crisis-era Supergirl or the Matrix Supergirl ... a leotard with an overlying skirt?
I'm hoping against hope for the '84 movies/Matrix themed look only tweaked here and there to further update it. :D
I have never hidden the fact that I prefer the full shirt/red skirt look.
Noir I at that. ;)
What do you all think? For or against the bike shorts?
I'm FOR the bike shorts only due to her costume being a 2 PIECE number which the red shorts seem to suit nicely.
Time for a new costume?
HELL YES!!! All due respect to Michael Turner but his overall look more then fits '05 fashion where in '09 it's starting to look really, really dated.
but I'll follow the traditional design: long sleeve leotard, mini-skirt, boots, bare legs, long hair and cape.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the post.
I agree that is the look that I prefer the most.
Hopefully we will see that again soon.
P.S. Jamal, please, for the love of God DON'T take away Supergirl's cape and replace it with a even more then dated 'jeans and t with red vest' attire for it's bad enough the fans have to put up with it being doen to Superboy and Wonder Girl.
ReplyDeleteThank you. :)
I don't care either way,I have some issues with Igle's reasoning but he's more a traditionalist than I am. I didn't even consider them panties, I thought they were what tennis players wore.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the post.
Igle has been passionate about this topic and has used strong language to back up his viewpoint. I know that has bothered some folks around the web.
To finish, the sample image from Final Crisis is an example of showing her bottoms just to do so.. if you look at it, you'll see that it should not be so visible so the perpective is 'off' , unless Supergirl anatomy is deformed.
ReplyDeleteI remember that I waxed poetic about that panel when the issue came out trying to think of some artistic or thematic reason for it to be there. But in the end, I think it was there just for tittilation.
At the very least the bike shorts ought to match the skirt color...but if nothing else is changed in respect of this issue I couldn't care less...it's only a pair of damn bike shorts
ReplyDeleteThanks for the post.
The thing is I agree this is much ado about nothing and yet here I am writing about it.
I guess I am as big a part of the problem as anyone.
The thing is I agree this is much ado about nothing and yet here I am writing about it.
ReplyDeleteI guess I am as big a part of the problem as anyone.
I think you're being too hard on yourself there, Anj. :)
I'm for the red shorts because I dislike the panty shots and the really short skirts. The shorts are necessary unless Supergirl can find some very strong starch for her skirt. Ian Churchill drew Supergirl's face very well, but the very short skirts he drew her in got to be ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteI would like to see Kara wear the movie costume (which would be a first in the comics) or the costume Jamal proposed last year as long as her shoulders were covered up more.
Jamal just said this on twitter 'As of Today , i'm no longer discussing what's under Supergirl's skirt. If you don't like the shorts, that's your problem, not mine.' I think we should let it go, its not going to change. Also, if anyone is messaging him about it, please stop he has better things to do than talk about panties.
ReplyDeleteJamal just said this on twitter 'As of Today , i'm no longer discussing what's under Supergirl's skirt. If you don't like the shorts, that's your problem, not mine.' I think we should let it go, its not going to change. Also, if anyone is messaging him about it, please stop he has better things to do than talk about panties.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the post and the info.
I can understand if Igle is sick of talking about what is essentially a non-issue.
I knew I was part of the problem! If you are reading this Jamal, I am sorry for adding to the fire.
He also posted very same message on Facebook too. ;)
ReplyDeleteWhat's funny to me is that Igle and those in his corner continually make a fallacious argument that basically goes as follows:
ReplyDelete"It's either the shorts, or her panties are going to be visible every other panel."
That is, simply, bad, bad logic.
AFAIC, the reason I'm against them is because they are aesthetically stupid. They just look horrible, from a purely aesthetic point-of-view.
As for the FC panel, I have read FC three times, and carefully at that. I never noticed her undergarment until it was pointed out here on this blog.
Sometimes I wonder if the people who are so quick to attack everyone else as pruriently-minded aren't the ones who take the most time looking for these types of things.
Finally, in a day and age where there are literally petabytes of free pornography on the Internet, it strikes me as odd that anyone would think that others would turn to comics, a single panel here or there, none the less, for "excitement."
I'm sorry if this came off as nastier than intended, and I certainly hope that I didn't offend anyone posting here. But some of us on the "other side" of the issue have had up to here with being labelled as perverts, or worse, for thinking that Michael Turner designed a beautiful costume for the new millennium, and that it didn't need to be altered.
Some people (again, no one here) must have a really nice view from that moral high ground of theirs.
AFAIC, the reason I'm against them is because they are aesthetically stupid. They just look horrible, from a purely aesthetic point-of-view.
ReplyDeleteThanks so much for the post. I enjoy partaking in sane dialogue and this has been a firestorm on other sites. I am glad you took the time to respond here with an even-keeled take on your point of view.
I can completely understand someone just not liking the look of the shorts. And that is a totally valid reason for wanting to go back to the prior look.
As for the FC panel, I have read FC three times, and carefully at that. I never noticed her undergarment until it was pointed out here on this blog.
Well, I think like with any hot button topic people have become sensitized to it such that they notice even the smallest instances.
In the FC example, it stood out to me especially given the inclusion of the bike shorts in the main title. Part of it may also have been my annoyance with trying to figure out where FC fit into a timeline. Was it pre-shorts or post?
But there is no denying that the panel could have been constructed in a way that neither panties or shorts would need to be visible. So they must be front and center for a reason.
But some of us on the "other side" of the issue have had up to here with being labelled as perverts, or worse, for thinking that Michael Turner designed a beautiful costume for the new millennium, and that it didn't need to be altered.
I was certainly not offended and I am glad you took the time to respond.
You are right that the loudest most obnoxious people on both sides have deteriorated to name-calling. I don't think that everyone who doesn't like the shorts is a pervert. But I don't think that all the pro-shorts people are ultra-conservative sexually repressed misogynists either (the name calling from the opposite end of the spectrum).
And it seems like with most things Supergirl, her biggest fans are having a hard time agreeing. I will admit that I prefer a Matrix-style costume. That said, I like the way Jamal is currently drawing the Turner outfit.
I really think the bike shorts topic is a tempest in a teapot. The shorts are seen maybe once or twice an issue and only when the action dictates that the skirt be significantly displaced. Like most people I am pretty sick of it being such a huge deal.
Of course, I am the guy who posted about it. So I am part of the problem.
Anyways thanks again for posting. There is always room for Kara fans here.
I added my two cents about that artical too
ReplyDeletehttp://kandouerik.blogspot.com/2009/06/supergirls-underwear.html
I won't like them changing her costume. Michael Turner might not have given her proper shorts, but is design is excellent in making Supergirl look modern, but while still invoking memories of her original costume.
DC - Don't change Supergirl's Costume! It's perfect the way it is!
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The skirt is more important than the damn briefs anyway...it is symbolic, evocative of power even. Imagine the shame that a misanthrope like Lex Luthor must feel when a sixteen year old girl in a swirling skirt completely kicks his backside?
ReplyDelete:D
John Feerr
Anj, I agree that it is nice to be able to discuss this subject with everyone remaining civil. It's definitely a change, as you know. :)
ReplyDeleteI think we all have our views, and even if I disagree with the shorts as an aesthetic idea, I can respect those who are proponents.
I do have to admit though that one of the final straws that broke the camel's back for me, as far as dropping the book after #39 was the tenor and intensity of this argument.
I know that you are looking forward to seeing Kara in Cry For Justice, as am I. Also, I agree that it's too bad she won't be there from the beginning, but I still trust Robinson to do right by our Maid of Might. :)
I, personally, agree with the bike shorts. He´s right, she must deal with foes and she moves a lot, especially if she uses martial arts.
ReplyDeleteI imagine that Supergirl, at first didn´t care very much about the panties thing until she entered to the internet and found plenty of sites showing shots of her fights and...big shots of her underwear, like in a Ikkitousen manga.
After that, she decided to wear the bike shorts ;)
The red shorts just make me want to see Supergirl in long pants - ditch the skirt completely! The skirt's been around long enough: its time is over.
ReplyDeleteWhat surprises me is that this has become an internet discussion almost a full year after the shorts first appeared. I remember seeing them in #34, noting that it was neat, and then moving on. There wasn't much talk then about it that I recall. I haven't a clue why Newsarama chose to bug Igle about it now, when they already talked about it in their Oct 2008 interview with him.
Maybe this a hot topic now because Gates and Igle have fixed so many things about SUPERGIRL that there isn't much left to complain about ;-) Renato Guedes must be amused - he introduced the blue shorts way back in SUPERGIRL #20. A good idea that should have been used from the beginning.
(Although I still say long pants would be best!)
What surprises me is that this has become an internet discussion almost a full year after the shorts first appeared. I remember seeing them in #34, noting that it was neat, and then moving on.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the post.
The topic has festered here and there and was frequently talked about on the DC boards.
I do think that Newsarama devoting a top story to it made it re-raise its ugly head. It even made NPR (at least its website).
Renato Guedes must be amused - he introduced the blue shorts way back in SUPERGIRL #20. A good idea that should have been used from the beginning.
I know! There was some complaints back then but no where near the current ferocity.
I won't like them changing her costume. Michael Turner might not have given her proper shorts, but is design is excellent in making Supergirl look modern, but while still invoking memories of her original costume.
ReplyDeleteDC - Don't change Supergirl's Costume! It's perfect the way it is!
Thanks for the post.
I do like the Turner costume when it is drawn like Igle and Guedes have drawn it. When it is too small (like Churchill) it is a bit off putting for me.
I, personally, agree with the bike shorts. He´s right, she must deal with foes and she moves a lot, especially if she uses martial arts.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the post.
I think it also gives Igle some freedom to draw her from all angles without being concerned about the up-skirt shot.